Nitrous

[TheSean]

Tell me if you guys can see THIS (http://www3.interscience.wiley.com:8100/legacy/college/sonntag/CL_0471275247_S/thermonet/user/tables/TABLE3S/table3sframe.html)

If so, a very technical discussion of nitrous is about to ensue. :whoa:


Sean

[HORSEpower]

You need a registration code to get in.

Kurt

[that camaro guy]

A-nieid
B-nied
C-nied

DENIED!

-Pete-

[TheSean]

FUCK

k, lemme copy the chart.

[TheSean]

See:
http://www.c-f-c.com/specgas_products/nitrous.htm
specific volume :
8.7 cu.ft./lb @ 70 F
cant find the chart for little vs at small temps and pressures, but that gives you a hint that as a gas, it takes up a LOT of space! This is why you can hold a couple litres of liquid, but only at very high pressures. Read on for more on that.

Look atthe chart here:
http://www.intertlan.com/cohetes/hybrids/oxidizer.html;

Note, specifically that it reaches saturation temperatur (and thus becomes liquid) at 460PSI at 32 degrees F. AT 90, it is 1069. which clearly identifies why you want a bottle warmer! Though you could inject gaseous n20 through the lines, the volume belowe saturation temperatue is VERY low. Also, since we're dealing with an already expanded gas (assuming), the specific volume and thus (constant mass) the true volume stay the same. Hence, unless your engine has a pressure of at LEAST 400PSI, there is absolutle no way in earthly temps that nitrous oxide can "puddle", which means re-compress itself. Lets say you by some freak accident ran 60psi, the temp of saturation is somewhere near -200C. No, your super victor isnt THAT good :D


From:
http://www.iigas.com/nitrous_oxideMSDS.htm;
MSDS specs:

chemical char's (80% way down):


Molecular Weight: 44.013
Boiling Point: -127.4°F ( -88.5°C) @ 1 atm
Specific Gravity: 1.53 At 70°F (21.1°C) @ 1 atm, Air = 1
Freezing/Melting Point: -131.5°F (-90.8°C) at 1 atm
Vapor Pressure: 745 psig at 70°F
Vapor Density: 0.1146 lb./cu ft (1.947kg/CuM), At 70°F (21.1°C) @ 1 atm
Water Solubility: 1.3 Vol./Vol. At 32° F (0°C)



also:
http://www.aeroconsystems.com/tips/Nitrous_properties.jpg

Visual reiteration of what i said above. That's the basic density graph of saturated nitrous oxide. It's actually a very small part of a funky bell shaped curve kinda deal. On a constant temperature basis, the pressure doesnt change for a very large volumetric shift in the middle, then as you approach superheated vapor stage (100% gas at above saturation temp), volme goes down as pressure increases. When it's a liquid (compressed liquid- belowe "freezing" point), the pressure goes WAY up with respect to decreasing volume. think of it like a sideways Z, with the middle part horizontal. on a graph of pressure (i) versus volume (d).

Got any questions? This is my dorky side being thrilled at learning shit i can relay to car stuff. This is what makes mechanical engineering worth it :)


Dr. Sean

[TheSean]

at atmosphere, the freezing point is ~(-131). Since it's not an ideal gas when its freezing, you can tuse OV=nRT and in order to finger out the freezing point at say 2BAR (14psi'g) id have to get paper out and shit. no thx, i know it's belowe freezing, so yah, no liquid n20 guys :)


Sean (+1)

[jeremy]

So where does it say my nitrous bottle holds 103 moles of n2o?

[Mr.Nitrous]

at atmosphere, the freezing point is ~(-131). Since it's not an ideal gas when its freezing, you can tuse OV=nRT and in order to finger out the freezing point at say 2BAR (14psi'g) id have to get paper out and shit. no thx, i know it's belowe freezing, so yah, no liquid n20 guys :)


Sean (+1)
dude, you have way to much free time.

[TheSean]

i researched, thought up and typed that in 30 minutes (see time stamp). Including finding new websites and everything. I value time doing stuff like that more than sitting there doing nothing. Geeze, i see how much if a shit you give. :p

Im an engineer(ing student), all that is in my brain dude. pfff.


Sean

[TheSean]

http://expha.com/sean/emma/shop/MOD/nitro1.JPG

http://expha.com/sean/emma/shop/MOD/nitro2.JPG

see for yourself ;)

[TheSean]

edit 5: realized that graph is not the one i was talking about. Thats a denity flux graph, but the minichart above it it a table representing the graph i was refering to.


Sean (+1)

[jeremy]

Ok so I was off by 1 decimal place. I can prove it hold 103M.

[jeremy]

Watch me.

[jeremy]

Here I go.

[jeremy]

10lbs N2O*(1000g/2.2lbs)*(1mole/44g N2O) = 103.3M @ any PSI

10lbs of n2o is 10 lbs of n2o, regardless of the temperature or pressure at which it is contained.

[jeremy]

+4

[TheSean]

where do you get 10lbs?

that is 100% dependant on specific density. You dont meaure gasses in mass dude :p

[TheSean]

get it?

[TheSean]

actually, 10lbs of n20 is 10lbs... but it can exist at any emp or pressure.. but not ALL of them at the same time. There is a line trend to follow.

PV=nRT doesnt work for state changes, either. it is liquid in the bottle, and hence the density changes a LOT. now your "10lbs" is a certain volume at a certain temp. i dont know the vol of the bottle, but from that i can find the pressure at a given temperature. If you heat it, there will be a pressure change.

[TheSean]

+4

[TheSean]

ok, so why do you care about pounds of nitrous again? :p

[jeremy]

When I take my nitrous bottle to dennis to have it filled, he weighs it, subtracts the weight of the bottle, and then adds nitrous until the resulting reminder equals 10lbs. Meaning, there is 10 lbs of liquid/gaseous nitrous in the bottle when it leaves the store. In any state, whether it be liquid, gas, solid, whatever...10lbs of n2o is 10lbs. And yes, you can measure a gas by mass. The chemical makeup of n2o is 2N which has an atomic weight of 28g per 6.02x10^23 atoms and O which has an atomic weight of 16g per 6.02x10^23 atoms. Therefore; if you have 44g of n2o then you must have 6.02x10^23 molecules of n2o. It just so happens that if you have 44g of n2o in a gaseous state at STP it would occupy a space of 22.4L. You could further reduce this space by decreasing the temperature or increasing the pressure, or both. We know from basic chemistry that any gas, once subjected to enough pressure will liquify at a given temperature. Nitrous begins to liquify at 15*C around 600PSI. Once in a liquid state is consumes much less space then as a gas. It follows then if you have 10lbs of n2o which has a unit weight of 44g/mole then you have 103M of n2o. Being that my nitrous bottle holds 10lbs of nitrous, I can say it holds 103M of n2o.

[jeremy]

Don't make me go all unit conversion on your ass.

[jeremy]

+2

[TheSean]

When I take my nitrous bottle to dennis to have it filled,

you mean "MR. Nitrous Pool"??? :hahano:

whs response to real work and research on a subject means i have too much free time?Just checking, cuz theres a lot of denni's out there...

[TheSean]

i never said you didnt have 0lb of nitro. it doesnt matter if you have eleveteen pounds, the point of this thread is that nitrous saturates (laymans: liquify) at a certain temp for ANY pressure and vice versa. Also, this trend os definite, measurable, and predictable. Hence, you said liquid and a pressure, i say the temp. You say liquid and a temp, i give you pressure. I can also throw in volume if you give me the quality. Molar mass had nothing to do with it, because that is, as you said, constant. Now we are agreeing :eek:


what conversion? You cant apply PV=nRT... der.

Also, remember that it doesnt all liquify at once. When it reaches a certain temp at a certain pressure, it is a certain volume. It changes vollume, density, specific volume and composition WHILE maintaining a constant temp AND pressure from the point that it starts to liquify till the point that it is 100% fluid. That is pretty coll if you think about it. It kinda chills out for a sec while it waits for the last molecules to luqify.

[TheSean]

+4

[HORSEpower]

What is the point of this thread Sean? Everyone knows that nitrous can not reliquify inside the intake, that's common sense, no math need be applied there.

Kurt

[jeremy]

In this case; however, our volume remains constant. The only 2 factors that can change are P = nT, also, you can only apply PV=nRT to a gas, and since the n2o we're concerned with is in a liquid state, PV=nRT gets thrown out the window. Therefore, we use molecular weight to determine the amount of n2o in the bottle. Simple dimensional analysis brings us from 10lbs to 103M.

[jeremy]

+1 (post count) +1 (hijack count)

[TheSean]

kurt, i READ that someone said there was a possibility. I even stated in a post that i was gonna go look up some info to prove it. Also, im phliulanthropic in a way that i wanted to state some HARD info to support what is really just a rumor as far as you guys are concerned. I i know im short, but ive never been in an intake manifold when nitrous was being injected. I doubt you have either, so im pretty firm on the fact that you are just goin by word of mouth in your belief in this. I picked the other way of proving it, with numbers, charts, graphs, and equations. I like to be certain in sthings before i go telling other people stuff, so sue me?

jeremy, when you say that p=nRT you are also assuming the substance isnt supercritical. Then there is no equation, theres only tables to get your #s from. Nitrous is not super-critical in any variation of this case. Im agreeing with you man, i know you can fit w/e moles in your tank if it's 10lbs. My only point is that that 10lbs isnt a fluid below X pressure at Y temp :p

I hoped someone got SOMETHING out of this thread. Im sure someone at some point in time will refer (and maybe link) to it for support in a debate, and hence have a solid argument. I got a good bit of knowledge out of writing it, i enjoyed researching that shit, and now i can back myself up with undeniable proof if i ever need to. Thats enough motivation for me, on top of the pure need to learn.


Sean

[toastychicken]

How about a "Sean's Q&A Corner" forum or something like that?

+1 derail

[toastychicken]

And all of you are full of shit. Sean, you have no idea what the fuck you are talking about you fucking whorebag. Jeremy's talking out of his ass like a douche too.

+1 troll/flame

[TheSean]

wow, that was uncalled for.

[TheSean]

and so is this :D

&1

[Mr.Nitrous]

[QUOTE=SK VR4]you mean "MR. Nitrous Pool"???
And you are meaning what by this?

[TheSean]

im meaning you dont know how to quote :hahano:

[HORSEpower]

I know by the laws of physics that nitrous is not going to go back into a liquid state when it gets in the intake. A 10 year old could tell you that. When they talk about puddling in the intake, they are talking about the fuel that is injected with the nitrous.

Kurt

[TheSean]

um, k

[jeremy]

I find that if you put a 9th spark plug in the intake it keeps the fuel from pooling there.

+1

[TheSean]

9th? i only have 6 to begin with :)

[jeremy]

9th? i only have 6 to begin with :)

Sounds like a personal problems to me.

+1 post count
+1 flame count
+1 RTR count

[TheSean]

damn, you got three on that. Hmm..


well my car weighs more.

+1 PC
+1 pointless idea
+2 because your mom.
-1 because i have ~3300 posts :(

[jeremy]

Aparently it was -3 because I only see 3297 posts.

[TheSean]

notice the
~

which means approximately.

+1

[jeremy]

there's no approximating an integer. That's just bad form.

[TheSean]

well the problem is that by the time everyone else saw it, the number would be different. Approximating is much better than being wrong.

w o
o t